Chris Christie has a Muslim problem

The Daily Iowan editorial board makes a bad choice of causes.
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Governor Chris Christie has a Muslim problem, one going beyond his nominating Sohail Mohammed as a Superior Court judge.

Who is Sohail Mohammed?

Sohail Mohammed, age 47, is a criminal attorney. He is also a prominent voice for Muslims in New Jersey, and especially in Passaic County, his home.

In 2000, he plumped for a new law defining halal food. Halal (“lawful”) food has much in common with Jewish kosher food: no pork, blood, or alcohol, no carnivores, birds of prey, or animals that were already dead before slaughtering. The key difference: during the slaughter, the butchers must pray specifically to Allah.

That by itself might not mean much. But shortly after the September 11 attacks, Sohail Mohammed defended several Muslim and Middle Eastern detainees. Typical old-line media reports speak of a “dragnet” “sweeping up” people. Well, innocent persons “in the wrong place at the wrong time” usually protest their innocence. They do not go on hunger strikes to demand special administrative favors, as these detainees did.

Sohail Mohammed is also the lawyer-in-chief for the American Muslim Union. The AMU tried to make a reputation for interfaith outreach. In fact it has many ties with front groups for Hamas (the Islamic Resistance Movement) and the Muslim Brotherhood (of which Hamas is a part). The Muslim Brotherhood has committed itself to establishing a worldwide caliphate with Sharia law prevailing everywhere. (Sources: Joel Mowbray, and Scott Johnson at Power Line.)

Mohammed Qatanani, head of the Islamic Center for Passaic County, was a client of Sohail Mohammed. And his case implicates not only Sohail Mohammed, but also Chris Christie—directly.

What did Chris Christie have to do with Qatanani?

Chris Christie as United States Attorney

Chris Christie as United States Attorney. Photo: US Department of Justice

Mohammed Qatanani lied on his application to move to the United States in 1999. In 1993, the Israeli Tzahal arrested him as a member of Hamas. A military tribunal convicted him of this. Qatanani should have mentioned this, but did not. Yet Qatanani makes no secret of his ideology. Once he prayed for the absorption of the Land of Israel into a “Greater Syria.”

When US immigration authorities sought to deport him, Sohail Mohammed represented him. And then, in 2008, then-Governor Jon S. Corzine and then-US Attorney Chris Christie intervened on Qatanani’s behalf. Chris Christie let one of his assistants, Charles McKenna, testify as a character witness for Qatanani. Then Christie himself appeared at the Passaic Islamic Center. There he praised Qatanani as “a man of great good will.”

When Chris Christie became governor, he appointed McKenna as his Commissioner on Homeland Security. But Christie’s worse problem is this: he must have gone to that mosque to support Qatanani to win Muslim votes. Democrats seem no longer to be the only ones who play politics with homeland security.

(Qatanani beat the deportation rap. According to Jonathan Tobin at Commentary, Qatanani said, but did not show, that the Tzahal tortured him to confess. But even if he wasn’t a radical then, he is now. His history in the United States shows this.)

What has Chris Christie said more recently?

Chris Christie insists that Sohail Mohammed is a good nominee to be a Superior Court judge. He defended the attorney at a town-hall meeting. He also mistakenly called him an Arab-American. (Sohail Mohammed is a native of India, not of any Arab land. See also here.) And yesterday afternoon, the New Jersey Senate Judiciary Committee took up the Sohail Mohammed nomination.

Chris Christie’s attitude seems typical to many conservatives. Typical, that is, of politicians all over America who are afraid to see Islam for what it is: a political movement in religious dress.

Neil Braithwaite of Canada Free Press calls this episode “the real reason Governor Christie won’t run for President.” More accurately, it is the real reason not to vote for Chris Christie for President.

Featured image: the Islamic crescent moon and star.

Editor-in-chief at | + posts

Terry A. Hurlbut has been a student of politics, philosophy, and science for more than 35 years. He is a graduate of Yale College and has served as a physician-level laboratory administrator in a 250-bed community hospital. He also is a serious student of the Bible, is conversant in its two primary original languages, and has followed the creation-science movement closely since 1993.

35 Responses to Chris Christie has a Muslim problem

  1. Tonto says:

    Christie’s basic problem is the same one that he shares with many Americans….he’s been duped by the islamic M.O. for when they are infiltrating any area. They play nice and are sooo sweet until they get a population presence of a larger dimension, and then they start making demands. That’s why most Americans are not fully aware that the muz are not our friends and islam is virulently anti-American, anti-Christian and, of course, 100% anti-Jewish. These are alien folk that do not think in the same ways that we have been raised to think…..they are the ENEMY…..and hopefully, the realization of that fact will come sooner than later to the American public and help us avoid all the crap that Europe is going through with these clowns….yeah, they will eventually become a problem like that…..it’s their goal and agenda. All of America needs to wise up about these scumbags.

    • Lee0521 says:

      Clowns are happy, carefree, child-loving people. Please do not insult them by putting them in the same category as Moslems.

  2. Bill says:

    The way you vilify Muslims reminds me of the way the Jews were vilified in Germany. I hate making references to Nazi Germany, but your “Muslim problem” post would fit in well if throughout it you replaced “Muslim” with “Jew”.

    • Lee0521 says:

      Jews do not stone, behead, kidnap, murder, blackmail, practice child-sacrifice, child-marriage, sanctioned rape or bomb innocent people on a daily basis. Shall I go on?

      • Camille says:

        you’ve never read Leviticus, have you?

        • Terry A. Hurlbut says:

          I have. The Canaanites had a specific charge against them: they practiced human sacrifice. Those wars are long since settled now. No one, least of all the Jews, are proposing to re-declare them.

          In contrast, Islam exhorts its followers to go out and conquer the world. Arabia uber alles (or however one says it in Arabic instead of German).

          • Camille says:

            Perhaps Arabia Akbar?

            Anyways, I realize the futility of debating you on your own theology. Who am I to decide what you believe? Nevertheless I do so in the hopes that you realize the same futility in trying to interpret Islam.

            I did some shallow research, so forgive me if I ignore the context, but the following passages seem to advocate brutal violence against arguably undeserving victims
            Hosea 13:16
            Numbers 31:17
            Deuteronomy 22:20
            Psalm 137

            I myself have met a few Muslims, and I can’t say they tried to kill me. Some scary things may be present in the Koran, but it isn’t up to you to decide what they mean or even whether they should be followed.

          • Terry A. Hurlbut says:

            It is up to anyone who can read and follow the text logically. To begin with, the books of the Koran are arranged in order from the longest to the shortest, not in order from the oldest to the newest. To sort them properly, move the Medina chapters after the Mecca chapters.

            All of the “fighting words” are in the Medina chapters. Among those fighting words:

            Fight and slay the infidels wheresoever ye find them. (Chapter 9, verse 5.)

            Now pay attention: the Abrogation Principle says that whenever two verses conflict, the one written later takes precedence. Therefore the fighting words are in force and supersede the peaceful words.

            The Koran declares that its readers are at war with anyone who is not a Muslim.

            That is what moved those men to fly those airplanes into those buildings.

          • Camille says:

            but you aren’t taking into account the many Muslims that DON’T want to kill infidels.
            It’s easy to look at the terrorists, but not every Muslim is a terrorist.
            It’s not fair to automatically assume a Muslim is a threat

  3. Camille says:

    The “political movement in religious dress” accusation is an old one, started by French philosopher Michel Foucault in his essay “A Powderkeg Called Islam.” As per the usual, this is the interpretation of people that are not members of the religion in question.
    I can arguably accuse protestants of being a “political movement in religious dress,” can’t I? After all, if I, an atheist, am left to interpret your dogma, can it honestly be said that my conclusions are the sole valid ones?
    Perhaps there are Muslims that believe Islam is a political movement. But you cannot rationally accuse the lot of them simply according to how YOU perceive their religion. Nor can you characterize a billion people based on the words and actions of a few.

    “Dual loyalty,” though not specifically mentioned in your blog post, has often been levied against Catholics and Jews. Mormons too have been victims of this accusation, though less frequently.
    Accusations of “dual loyalty” plagued John F. Kennedy’s campaign with people accusing him of being subordinate to the pope. In Germany the Jews were accused of plotting against Germany with the “stabbed in the back” myth. Never mind that 12000 Jewish soldiers died fighting for Germany in World War I. There are some Muslims that are terrorists. Do not pretend that all Muslims are out to get you, however.

    As for Sohail Mohammed, I did not find any profiles of him from anything other than conservative news sites. That guy really needs a website.

  4. John says:

    This entire article is a piece of xenophobia and ignorance. You’re writing hate, and while personally I would feel uncomfortable having this kind of literary bile attached to my name, I fully respect your right to express this kind of nonsense.

    Muslims, like ALL people, are not some monolithic group. They run the gambit from totally wonderful, nice, kind, generous, friendly people, to ignorant hateful jerks, just like Christians, Atheists, Buddhists and all other religions or irreligions.

    I don’t think you realize that the internet is a global thing, and there are Muslims around the world that can read this, and likely will once some fundamentalist sees it and uses this insane screed you’ve written to propagate the myth that all Americans are intolerant racists who want to kill Muslims. This makes new terrorists. By writing what you’ve written here, you may have made someone decide to join Al-Qaeda. You are actively aiding the enemy by contributing to their propaganda. I won’t call it treason because this clearly wasn’t your intention, but you’re walking that line.

    The Koran is fairly tolerant of Christians and Jews. Yes, it says death to infidels (but only after giving them ample opportunity to convert, and only if they are a direct threat, and only if they’re a man of fighting age), but Christians and Jews don’t technically count as infidels. The Koran states that Allah is the same god as the God of the Torah and the Gospels. It clarifies that Jews screwed up the message, and Christians worshiped the messenger, and didn’t listen to the message. It lists Yeshua bar Yusuf (Jesus) as a prophet, but ascribes no other divinity to him.

    That’s the funny thing about Fundamentalists, is that they probably screw up scripture the most, by cherry picking what they want to hear, and ignoring the rest. Fundamentalist Muslims are bad Muslims in that they violate the teachings of the Koran completely, and ignore the message of peace and compassion that Muhammad taught (don’t get me wrong though, the man was an empire builder, and he built an empire through his religion).

    There’s no reason to take any action against Islam or any Muslim. They cannot take over our government. They cannot institute sharia law in this country. It’s because of the First Amendment.

    I’ve beaten people over the head with the fact that America cannot be a Christian nation, explicitly so. For the exact same reasons, America will never be a Muslim one. Have faith that our Constitution, the single greatest ever written, and the model for every other constitution written after, will protect us. America will never be without any particular religious group, our Constitution assures this, but we will also never be under the control of any particular religion, our Constitution assures this as well.

    In short, I’d say that what you’ve written here is Anti-American. If you won’t respond, please at least think about why I can say that about your behavior.

    • Terry A. Hurlbut says:

      Dare you threaten me? Because that is what you have done. All right, then! If you think that I stand in violation of some law, then swear out a warrant for my arrest. Only I warn you: I am already lawyered up.

      The rest of what you have written is arrant nonsense. You say that Muslims cannot take over the government? They already have. Oh, not so much Obama himself, for he is an “Obamist,” not a Muslim. But he has done them the kinds of favors to which they ought never be entitled.

      Don’t tell me that the Koran is tolerant of Christians or Jews. I have read it. I have read it the way it ought to be read. I have applied the Abrogation Principle.

      And I warn you of something else: You will be a target. Because the Fundamentalist Muslims are absolutely right in their reading of the Koran. They are the only ones who are right. And they know it.

      At the same time they are completely wrong in following what was always a false god.

      In closing, I address this to any Muslim who reads this:

      1. I eat pork chops for dinner.
      2. Beware of dog.
      • Paul Durrant says:

        Once your stereotypical right-wing paranoia subsides, read John’s comment again – there’s no threat.

        Muslims haven’t taken over the government, and when you and people of your ilk claim otherwise you just look like idiots. Compare Saudi Arabia to America and stop being stupid.

        When you tar all Muslims with the same brush, be aware that others will do the same to you, making you, Terry, the kind of person who murders doctors, firebombs clinics, beats up gays and lynches blacks. In other words, by your own standards, YOU are a terrorist.

        You claim to have read the constitution so please tell me where it says “except Muslims” when talking about rights, which would justify your “they ought never be entitled” phrase.

        I just wish you would learn to practice the Christian principles you claim to support instead of being such a hate-filled bigot.

      • Kyle says:

        “Dare you threaten me? Because that is what you have done. All right, then! If you think that I stand in violation of some law, then swear out a warrant for my arrest. Only I warn you: I am already lawyered up.”

        Please let me know where John thratened you or claimed you were in violation of some law. I have just read his comment 3 times and I cannot find a single sentance that implies this.

        “You say that Muslims cannot take over the government? They already have. Oh, not so much Obama himself, for he is an “Obamist,” not a Muslim. But he has done them the kinds of favors to which they ought never be entitled.”

        Taken OVER the government? The American government has been TAKEN OVER my Muslims? Er… when did this happen?

    • JesusGirl says:

      “I don’t think you realize that the internet is a global thing, and there are Muslims around the world that can read this, and likely will once some fundamentalist sees it and uses this insane screed you’ve written to propagate the myth that all Americans are intolerant racists who want to kill Muslims. This makes new terrorists. By writing what you’ve written here, you may have made someone decide to join Al-Qaeda. You are actively aiding the enemy by contributing to their propaganda. I won’t call it treason because this clearly wasn’t your intention, but you’re walking that line.”

      If Muslims are kind, peaceful, loving people, then why is there an orginazation like Al-Qaeda? If I saw an article bashing Christianity, am I going to go bomb the house of the person who wrote it, or commit some terrorist act against them? Of course not. However, you can look at examples around the world where Muslims have committed terrorist acts against those who speak out against Islam. You do not see Jews or Christians participating in those actions.
      Qur’an 48:29: “Muhammad is Allah’s Apostle. Those who follow him are RUTHLESS TO THE UNBELIEVERS but merciful to one another.” (emphasis added)
      This verse, and many others, says that Muslims have the right to be ruthless to those who refuse to believe in their religion. That doesn’t sound very tolerant to me.
      I will agree that not all Muslims are evil and are trying to kill people, but:
      Two reasons:
      1) They are not actually following the Koran, and have decided to ignore the violent passages.

      2) There is not a Muslim majority. Let’s say that there is one small Muslim family in a large neighborhood, and they are the only Muslims. The family is going to be nice and friendly. But then let’s say that many Muslims move into that neighborhood, and now there are more Muslims than non-Muslims. The majority of Muslims are going to start demanding that Sharia law be instituted, and violence will break out. I’m not saying that in every singe instance this will occur, but you can look at actual examples where this did occur.

      • Kyle says:

        “The majority of Muslims are going to start demanding that Sharia law be instituted, and violence will break out. I’m not saying that in every singe instance this will occur, but you can look at actual examples where this did occur.’

        Such as?

      • John says:

        “If Muslims are kind, peaceful, loving people, then why is there an orginazation [sic] like Al-Qaeda? If I saw an article bashing Christianity, am I going to go bomb the house of the person who wrote it, or commit some terrorist act against them? Of course not. However, you can look at examples around the world where Muslims have committed terrorist acts against those who speak out against Islam. You do no”t [sic] see Jews or Christians participating in those actions.”

        If Christians are kind, peaceful, loving people, then why are there organizations like the Westboro Baptist Church and the KKK?

        You can look throughout world history and see examples where Christians have committed terrorist acts against anyone who disagrees with them, other Christians included. Israel is also one of the world leaders in human rights violations.

        Do you follow everything in the Bible? Do you find no problem with slavery? If you were raped, would you marry your rapist? Do you eat shellfish? The Bible says slavery is okay, rape victims should marry their rapists and shellfish is an abomination. Do you believe all of this? If yes, then you are insane. If no, then you, by your own logic, are not a very good Christian. Do you see the problem with this line of thinking yet?

        Fundamentalism is a corruption of religion, not a clearer or cleaner expression of it.

        Also, I’d like to second Kyle’s request to see a specific examples of “The majority of Muslims are going to start demanding that Sharia law be instituted, and violence will break out”. I’m pretty sure this hasn’t happened anywhere. Ever. Then again, I don’t know everything and would relish you proving me wrong.

  5. JesusGirl says:

    As far as Muslim rioting, you can look at places where Muslims have a high majority, such as England and France, and see where a majority riots, and kills.
    Rioting in France: http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/07/muslims-rioting-in-france-burning-cars-over-killing-of-muslim-casino-robber-who-shot-at-cops.html
    Rioting in Pakistan:
    http://www.christianpost.com/news/rioting-muslims-damage-church-properties-in-pakistan-50069/

    Part from rioting in Pakistan article: “that the riots compelled a large number of Christian families to flee, as they feared the kind of large-scale violence that occurred in Gojra on Aug. 1, 2009, when at least seven Christians were burned alive by Muslim mobs after the spread of a rumor of blasphemy.”

    A simple google search will bring up countless results of Muslim rioting in France, England, and other places dominated by a large Muslim population.

    The difference between Islam and Christianity: “Christians”, such as Westboro Baptist Church, are not actually following the teaching of the Bible. Muslims, such as the ones who burn people alive, behead people, participate in: genital mutilation and beating your wife, etc. are actually following the Koran.
    As far as Old Testament references to violence, etc.: Christians today are no longer obligated to follow Old Testament laws. When Jesus came, following God drastically changed. Our final authority comes from what Jesus, the Son of God, stated, such as “love your enemies.” That verse is opposite to the teaching of the Koran.

    Do I eat shellfish? Actually, no, I’m a vegetarian.

    Since you are listing Old Testament laws that are no longer practiced, let’s mention some more recent atrocities that Muslims have committed.
    On the cover of Time magazine, there was a picture of a Muslim woman who had had her nose and ears cut of by her Muslim husband, because he was abusive, so she ran away from him.

    A 14-year old Muslim girl was raped by a relative. She was accused of adultery, and was sentenced to a beating. She died from blood-loss.

    As far as Mohammed goes: “Mohammed, the prophet of the Islamic world, married his last bride Aisha when she was just six years old, and the (sic) consummated the marriage with her when she was just nine years old. In Islamic states, partly because of this precedent, this practice still happens in fundamentalist countries like Afghanistan. Muslims will say that a child of six or seven is almost certain to be a virgin. Mohammed was at least 50 when he married Aisha.”
    “Women in Islam have no rights, especially if they are non-Muslim, and these men get away with their evils because people are too afraid to stand up against the barbarity of the culture which the religion they follow has instilled in them. Threats of death are imposed upon those who would stand up against this. In Lahore, a man and his entourage of Muslim lawyers has threatened to “burn alive” anyone who will come to the defence of a 12-year-old servant of his, whom he raped and murdered.”
    From: http://www.martinspribble.com/2010/06/12/crimes_against_women_and_children_in_the_name_of_islam/

    We could go on and on. Again, any google search will come up with many results of the crimes against others that Muslims commit.

    I would encourage you to look further into the Muslim relgion. The crimes being committed against humans are so horrific, how could anyone not stand up for the victims?

    Also, if feel the need to further defend Sharia law, please read this article:
    http://www.americanthinker.com/2005/08/top_ten_reasons_why_sharia_is.html

    • Paul Durrant says:

      So your defence of Christianity amounts to the No True Scotsman fallacy and the fact that you’re a vegetarian?

      You’re mistaking the rules set up by an Islamic state for rules defined by Islam – the two are not the same. And defining a religion by the actions of a few people is simply risible.

      If you’re going to wilfully misrepresent statistics, let’s play at that for a while. America imprisons a greater proportion of its population than China and North Korea, thus communist dictatorships are more open societies than America’s. You see how this works?

  6. JesusGirl says:

    I’m not sure exactly what you mean. To repeat what I stated earlier, we are no longer following Old Testament rules, because Jesus freed us from them.
    Actually, the fact that I’m a vegetarian has nothing to do with this, I was merely answering your question on whether or not I eat shellfish. (By the way, my being a vegetarian has nothing to do with religion, it’s a personal conviction of mine.)

    “You’re mistaking the rules set up by an Islamic state for rules defined by Islam – the two are not the same. And defining a religion by the actions of a few people is simply risible.”
    Paul- did you not read the verses from the Koran in the last article, where the horrible things these Muslims were doing is in the Koran?
    A few people? Hardly. There are many countries in the Middle East that are controlled by Muslims, such as Saudi Arabia, that practice barbaric horrors daily. These are not the actions of “a few” extremists.

    “If you’re going to wilfully misrepresent statistics, let’s play at that for a while.” Misrepresent statistics? Where have I done that? Paul, I’m citing examples of things that *actually* occured, not something I just made up. I am thirteen years old, fourteen in a few months. The girl who was raped, beaten, and died from blood-loss? She was only a little bit older than me. If I lived in a Muslim family in the middle east, I could be facing marrige soon, if I wasn’t already married to an old man. And I might be only one of his wives. In America, I can look forward to getting my driver’s license soon. If I lived in a place like Saudi Arabia where Sharia law is instituted, I would *never* be getting my driver’s license. In fact, I’d never even be able to drive. If I lived in a Muslim country, I would have to walk around wearing a Burka. If I lived in a Muslim country and was married, my husband could beat me (or cut off my nose and ears, in the case of some) if he wished.
    My friend, these things would not be the actions of a few radicals, they are mainstream in the Muslim world. Verses from the Koran, as well as Mohammed’s own life, allows for things like this to happen.
    Paul, I have to wonder, based on some remarks you made, if you actually read some of the articles I referenced.

    • John says:

      The examples you’ve provided are not examples of “the majority of Muslims are going to start demanding that Sharia law be instituted, and violence will break out.”

      In France, not only is there not a Muslim majority, there has been no call for Sharia law, and those riots were in response to perceived injustices by the police. We’ve had similar riots in our own country, many times before, and none really involving a lot of Muslims.

      In Pakistan, it isn’t a demand for Sharia law that is causing violence. The conflict there is WAY more complex, and you need to understand the history of the region to really understand what’s going on there. It has less to do with Islam than you’d think, and a whole lot more to do with Imperialism.

      You seem to conflate Islam with Saudi Arabia, which is like confusing Christianity with Italians. The problems you’ve described are caused by an oppressive theocracy, not because they happen to be Muslim.

      In this country, a century ago, you, as a woman, would not have had the ability to vote, the prevailing legal opinion would be that you were actually your husband or father’s chattel, and marital rape had yet to be widely recognized as a concept (Alabama legally did not admit that such a thing could even happen until 1989). A century ago, depending on where you lived, if you were the same age you are now, you may have already been married off, and be pumping out babies. Possibly until you dropped dead in childbirth, and your husband took another, younger wife.

      I mentioned thing in the Bible to point out that you are ostensibly a Christian and ostensibly you read that book, but you do not follow everything in it. A lot of Muslims are the same way. You claim that Jesus “freed” you from the laws of the Torah, but not all the gospels agree on this.

      You’re using too broad of strokes, throwing all Muslims into some monolithic group when they’re not. There are different types of Muslims, with different beliefs (just like Christianity has more flavors than ice cream). American-Muslims, and I’ve met more than just a few, follow the laws of the Constitution just like you and I do. The vast majority are peaceful people, who do not wish to institute Sharia law.

  7. JesusGirl says:

    I think a major problem is that we mean different things when the say “Muslim”. When I say Muslim, I am referring to people who are actually following the Koran. When you say Muslim, you mean people who are not following the Koran.
    A Christian is someone who follows the teaching of Christ. I follow the teaching of Christ, so I am a Christian. I’m not going to bother repeating myself over the Old Testament issue, because I have already provided a response to that.
    “You claim that Jesus “freed” you from the laws of the Torah, but not all the gospels agree on this.” Can you give me the exact verse, please?

    “In this country, a century ago, you, as a woman, would not have had the ability to vote, the prevailing legal opinion would be that you were actually your husband or father’s chattel, and marital rape had yet to be widely recognized as a concept (Alabama legally did not admit that such a thing could even happen until 1989). A century ago, depending on where you lived, if you were the same age you are now, you may have already been married off, and be pumping out babies. Possibly until you dropped dead in childbirth, and your husband took another, younger wife.” Yes, but the things that happened “a century ago” are taking place in Muslim countries *right now*. The reason the things you mentioned were abolished is because brave people stood up for justice.

    Do we agree that some Muslims do commit horrific crimes (such as burning people alive, stoning people, cutting off hands and feet, genital mutilation, cutting off your wife’s nose and ears, beating your wife, etc.)? Those are all very real occurrences.

    If, say, Muslims were in control in America, you and Paul would have nothing to lose as long as you converted. In fact, Muslim men have a nice life, you can have many wives, and if you ever get sick of a wife just accuse her of adultery, she’ll be stoned, and things like that.
    What would happen to me if Muslims were in control? I would be raped, and then faced with a choice: Deny Jesus and become a Muslim, or be tortured and then killed. The same would happen to my family. There are Christians in Muslim countries today who are tortured and killed because they refuse to deny Jesus. I have the utmost respect for those people. I hope that, if Muslims were in control and I was faced with a slow, painful death or denying Jesus my savior, that I would stand firm and never deny my Lord, regardless of the consequences.

    “You’re using too broad of strokes, throwing all Muslims into some monolithic group when they’re not.” Well, if a Muslim is following the Koran, isn’t that what makes them a Muslim? The Koran teaches that men may abuse their wives. Some Muslim men beat their wives in following this verse. But, apparently, saying that Muslims following their religion and therefore abusing their wives is painting Muslims with a broad stroke. Doesn’t make much sense to me, but whatever.

    “You seem to conflate Islam with Saudi Arabia, which is like confusing Christianity with Italians. The problems you’ve described are caused by an oppressive theocracy, not because they happen to be Muslim.” What oppressive theocracy? The theocracy found in the Koran, the Muslim’s Holy Book?

    • John says:

      I think the major problem is your insistence on a faulty double standard born through you being misinformed and hence prejudiced.

      Religious labels are self-selecting, meaning that you apply the label to yourself, and that’s pretty much how it comes about. Labels are, after all, just words, and words are only wind.

      Muslim can’t mean “follows the Koran to the letter” if Christian doesn’t mean “follows the Bible to the letter”. A Muslim is, by the standard of the Koran, anyone who believes, “There is no god but Allah, and Muhammad was His prophet.” Saying this in front of witnesses, an act called “Shahada” is what makes one a Muslim. This is the equivalent to the Lord’s Prayer, and the singular act required for conversion to Islam.

      “Islam” in Arabic means, “surrender” with different meanings. For conservative Muslims (the minority) this means, “The women surrender to men, the men surrender to their prophet and the prophet surrenders to God and children are beneath everyone.” For moderate, liberal and the vast majority of American-Muslims this means surrendering to God through daily prayer, fasting once a year, charity to those less fortunate, the daily struggle to recognize and be faithful to God’s teachings and pilgrimage to Mecca once in your life (which is no less than visiting Rome or Jerusalem/ Bethlehem).

      X-Number Daily Prayer of “Shahada” et alia, Fasting during Ramadan, Charity to the Poor, The Daily Struggle to be Faithful, and Pilgrimage to Mecca, are known as the Five Pillars of Islam. They are ultimately more the basis for what is and is not a Muslim than the Koran could be as the vast majority of Muslims do not understand Classical Arabic, much like most Christians do not understand Hebrew, Greek or Latin. What I’ve just described, these Five Pillars, I find to be completely compatible and in no way offensive to my own Christian faith. While I do not observe any of these myself apart from perhaps pilgrimage and then certainly not to Mecca, I find them to all be admirable.

      You claim to follow the teachings of Christ, and then you spill forth nothing but hate and fear, two emotions that are the antithesis of the teachings of Christ. I’m not going to assert that you’re not a Christian, because, as written before, these are only self-selecting labels. Although, depending on what particular type of Christianity you subscribe to, other Christians may consider you an apostate and a heretic. Personally, I believe that Jesus teaches us to love our fellow man (on whatever level we are able to) no matter what they believe.

      I would love to fulfill your request that I provide actual Bible verses, but you haven’t complied with my request to provide actual examples of “the majority of Muslims are going to start demanding that Sharia law be instituted, and violence will break out.” Furthermore, just as a little logic test, if Jesus renders the Old Testament moot, what becomes of the Ten Commandments?

      There’s a wonderful counter example to “the majority of Muslims are going to start demanding that Sharia law be instituted, and violence will break out”. In Canada, the government proposed passing a law that would have allowed religious communities to govern themselves by their own religious laws (ergo Muslims could institute Sharia law). Canadian-Muslims actively campaigned against this proposed law, saying that if this law were passed, they would move to America, where legally no such thing could ever happen.

      Instead of me just giving the verses in question to you, I request that you do some biblical scholarship, and look at the differences between Mark, Matthew, Luke and John. All four were written either decades and leagues apart from one another, each for wildly different audiences, and all four contradict one another. You shouldn’t have any problem with this request, as all I’m asking you, from one Christian to another, is for you to read the Good Book more closely, or barring that, read the thoughts of some biblical scholars on the Bible.

      “The reason the things you mentioned were abolished is because brave people stood up for justice.” Yes, even though similar things still happen in America, “brave people” includes people of all faiths, and “justice” means basic human rights. Also, that one sentence is an incredibly poor response to what I’ve said, lacking in both rigor and usefulness. What does that have to do with anything, anyways?

      Do you agree that Christians and Jews also commit horrific acts? There are consistent reports of human rights abuses committed by Israel. The history of the Christian religion is so full of bloodshed that simply trying to recount each major act of violence in an exhaustive fashion would be beyond exhausting, and likely impossible. There’s this English guy called Cromwell, he was SUPER Christian (at least in his own mind), and he slaughtered thousands.

      Muslims will never be control of America. Religions cannot control America. Our Constitution prohibits this. If you are unfamiliar with why exactly this is, you should read the Constitution sometime. The rest of your hypothetical exercise is grounded entirely in gross speculation and paranoia, and I find myself incapable of taking it seriously.

      Christians make up the vast majority of our prison population, a higher percentage in fact than the percentage of the general population that self-identifies as Christian. Should I declare that all criminals in America are Christian, or worse, that all Christians in America are (at least statistically more likely to be) criminals? No. This would be stupid, counter-productive, and above all else, prejudicial.

      Algebra, modern medicine (including surgery and especially pharmacology), and nearly every piece of scientific information the Greeks and Romans learned that we still have today, we have largely because of Islam, which has historically taught that God gave us a brain in order to further our knowledge of His Universe. When Christians were splitting open the skull and salting the brain to kill a demon in order to treat headaches, the Muslims were prescribing the direct precursor to aspirin.

      While Christians ignored mathematics for nigh on a millennium, Muslims invented Algebra (which is derived from an Arabic word meaning “restoration”). A large part of the scientific and mathematical information gleaned from the Greeks was kept in Cordoba, Spain. Christians only retrieved this information when the Moors were chased out of Spain. When we were dumping our feces into the streets, the Muslims had running water, and sophisticate water filtration system.

      This was our (Europeans’) dark age. Currently Islam is in a bit of a dark age (apart from controlling the majority of global oil production). In a century or so, Muslims could be caught up with the rest of the world, and truly ready to join our modern secular societies. This “Arab Spring” and what’s going on in Libya may be their “Boston Tea Party” and “Boston Massacre”. Instead of saying things that boil down to, “All Muslims are violent maniacs”, it is far more productive to encourage them to catch up with us. Some Muslim countries, like Turkey, already extend basically the same rights to women that America does. Your “What oppressive theocracy? The theocracy found in the Koran, the Muslim’s Holy Book?” argument is demonstrably rooted in ignorance. Turkey, Malaysia, Indonesia, and Singapore, are all democracies with large numbers of Muslims. Yes, they have some draconian laws, and their governments are completely [expletive deleted] up, but name a country you couldn’t say this about.

      I will fully admit that Muslims are capable of great evil, but only because Homo Sapiens as a species are capable of great evil. Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Hindu, Atheist, Rastafarian, Pastafarian, Zoroastrian, Pagan, Agnostic, Jain, Sikh, and all of the other thousand religions I’m forgetting, all of these peoples are capable of evil. All of these groups have committed evil acts. They are all also capable of goodness and compassion, and for that, I will not condemn them all. This is something I personally learned from the teachings of Jesus Christ. “Love thy neighbor as thyself” and in our global world, all of these people are our neighbors. Not all Muslim men beat their wives, just like not all, but some Christian men beat their wives. I would be equally fair in asserting that Christianity tells men to beat their wives as I would Islam.

  8. Dianne says:

    John,
    Where is the hate and fear spewed forth by JesusGirl? I see none of that. Furthermore, you identify yourself as a Christian and yet see nothing wrong with the 1st Pillar of Islam: “There is no god but Allah, and Muhammad is the messenger of Allah?” At any rate, quibbling over who is and isn’t a Christian is besides the point. You’ve made a number of erroneous statements in your previous post (such as Christians make up the majority of prisoners in our jails), but really, the bottom line here is this: does radical Islam pose a threat to the United States? Any fool can see that the answer is YES. You rely on our Constitution– what’s do say that won’t be overthrown? We have no guarantee that it will remain intact, and Obama is dismantling it as fast as he can, anyway.

    • John says:

      She’s condemning an entire ethnic group as barbarous murders, how is that not hate and fear?

      I’m a Christian, but I’m also tolerant of other people’s religions. Gee, what a concept. It sounds terribly American.

      My statement about Christians in prison is correct. You just claiming otherwise doesn’t alter the fact that Christians make up the majority of the prison population (and have for a LONG time).

      Does Radical Islam pose a threat to the United States? Yes. Does posting this kind of hate incite Muslims toward radicalism? Yes. Therefore, shouldn’t we avoid this kind of thing? Instead of persecuting Muslims, and giving credit to the radical’s argument that America is Anti-Muslim, which will only cause the growth of radical Islam and promulgate violence, is it not a wiser, more moral course of action to seek a common cause and instead of spreading fear, spread compassion, love and tolerance? What would Jesus do?

      The Constitution has stood for over two-hundred years, weathering all challenges, both domestic and foreign. Have a little faith in the document, it’s what makes us Americans.

      Also, while I think Obama is a terrible president, I can’t say I’ve seen much evidence of him dismantling the Constitution. Could you cite some specific examples?

      • Dianne says:

        OK, so perhaps prisoners “self-identify” as Christians. I’ve talked to people who think that because they are not Jewish or Muslim, then they are Christians, but a Christian, by definition, is a follower of Jesus Christ. In any event, the religious make-up of the prison population is pointless ot this discussion. If you need specific examples of Obama’s crimes, you must have your head in the sand. Czars, ramming Obamacare down our throats, suing Arizona, refusing to uphold DOMA, and various executive orders, the most recent one which instructs ICE they don’t need to deport illegal aliens who are enrolled in college, among other things. There’s probably more, but that’s all I can think up off the top of my head. Oh, I almost forgot– our 4th amendment rights are being shredded by the TSA.
        In any event, I think that Islam should be exposed as the sham religion that it is. That’s not hate-speech, but that’s the same old tired argument one always hears anytime someone speaks out about the truth of Islam. The stated goal of Islam is world domination. The stated goal of Amidinajab is the annihilation of both Israel and the US. Cause for concern? Definitely.

        • John says:

          “In any event, the religious make-up of the prison population is pointless ot [sic] this discussion.” Ah yes, the concede where you were clearly wrong by declaring my point irrelevant. If Muslims made up the majority of the prison population, you would be screaming that this is evidence that all Muslims are evil.

          “If you need specific examples of Obama’s crimes, you must have your head in the sand. Czars, ramming Obamacare down our throats, suing Arizona, refusing to uphold DOMA, and various executive orders, the most recent one which instructs ICE they don’t need to deport illegal aliens who are enrolled in college, among other things. There’s probably more, but that’s all I can think up off the top of my head. Oh, I almost forgot– our 4th amendment rights are being shredded by the TSA.”

          Okay, now you need to provide how those violate the Constitution. DOMA violates the 14th Amendment, so if he didn’t refuse to uphold it, he would be violating the Constitution, so one of your examples is actually a counter-example.

          You’re right about the 4th Amendment, but the TSA started violating that right under Bush, not Obama.

          Czars certainly don’t violate the Constitution, and you’d know that if you knew anything about what these “Czars” actually do.

          How do you know Islam is a sham religion? Do you have any evidence? If I made a similar claim about Christianity, you’d ask for evidence of this assertion, right?

  9. JesusGirl says:

    “I’m a Christian, but I’m also tolerant of other people’s religions. Gee, what a concept. It sounds terribly American.”
    First of all, John, I have not seen you display any tolerance or compassion towards me, a fellow believer. In fact, I feel that you have been quite hateful.
    Let’s look at what Jesus told the Pharisees in Matthew 23:13-15: “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.” He also calls them “blind fools” and “blind guides”. And that’s what Jesus, the Son of God you say you follow, said. He didn’t sound too tolerant.
    Also, this is an excellent article I think you should read: http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/williams031908.php3

    I’m not going to respond on this thread, mostly because you are telling me to be tolerant, but you are not practicing tolerance towards me. Also, you are obviously very close-minded. You are not going to change my mind, and I’m probably not going to change yours. Hopefully I have given you some things to think about, and perhaps later in life you will agree with me. Perhaps not.

    In Christ,

    JesusGirl

    • John says:

      This is the biggest cop-out I have ever seen in an argument. You ignore all of my points (likely because I’ve torn your argument to pieces, but you lack the courage to admit defeat), and instead write, “Oh yeah, well it takes one to know one!” This called a “Tu Quoque” and it is a horrible logical fallacy.

      “Also, you are obviously very close-minded.” Yes, I’m close-minded for using facts to expose your ignorance. Also, how closed or open-minded I am has nothing to do with the validity of my argument. This is called an “ad hominem” attack, and it is another logical fallacy.

      I was really impressed for awhile there, you were debating with more skill than I usually see from people who spout this nonsense, which was all the more impressive because of your young age. Initially I was doubtful that you actually were just a middle school student. Then you made this response, and it became pretty clear you’re still a child.

      Being intelligent isn’t about never being wrong; it’s about having the courage to admit when you’ve been incorrect or misinformed.

  10. Dianne says:

    Wow, John does a great job of proving JesusGirl’s point. He does come across as quite hateful.

  11. BornADemocrat says:

    John, looks like you spend your life trolling around for 13 year olds to attempt to beat up. Impressive (not).

  12. John says:

    And you’re both doing an amazing job of proving my point that you don’t know what you’re talking about, by refusing to engage with my argument and instead resorting to childish personal smears, and crude attempts at character assassination.

    Next you’ll be writing, “I know you are, but what am I?”, “I’m rubber, you’re glue; everything you say bounces of me and sticks to you!” and finally, “Nanny, nanny, boo boo, stick your head in doo-doo!”

    Grow up.

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